Original Loads for 1860 and 1858 Revolvers

[Omnivore]

I've been searching for info on the loads used back in the 1850s in Colt and Remington revolvers, without much success. Particularly I'd like to know about conical bullet loads (bullet weight and charge weight). The Remington frame appears to have been specifically designed to accommodate conical bullets, and it is my understandiong that there were factory paper cartridges that used conicals.

Anyone have any specific information on the actual, period loadings?

[No3buckshot]

Omnivore,

Check the Dixie Gun Works catalog.

The stuff in the info pages in the back has it, IIRC.

Buckshot

[DutchmanDick]

According to the 1861 Ordnance Manual, powder charge for an "Army" (.44 caliber) revolver should be 30 grains and bullet weight should be 216 grains. If you're really interested in this, buy or borrow a copy of the book Round Ball to Rimfire (volume 3). It contains a wealth of information on the different kinds of revolver cartridges used during the Civil War, along with the various known types of bullets and their dimensions and weights.

[MrAcheson]

30 grains of powder on top of a conical.

Keep in mind that a lot of people back then still preferred the older round ball loadings. The bullet is lighter, but faster and their terminal behavior is better.

[Omnivore]

Great leads there. Thanks to all.

[1858remington]

I've always stuck to 25 grains in both my 44 and 36 cal Remingtons. I found a 30gr load was not very accurate. 25gr. had me shooting spot on.

[1911Tuner]

1858 Remington...my experience mirrors yours...and like many, I've pondered on that.

I'd have to assume that the results were the same in "those days" as it is now...and the reason probably being because the need for killing power at sword-fighting distance trumped the need for accuracy.

In years gone by, I kept my hands and clothes covered with black smudges with those things...and I loved it. My first replica was a Navy Arms .36 caliber Sheriff's model bought at age 17 for the princely sum of 40 bucks out the door.

[TEDDY]

I will have to make a few bullets as I have a colt and Remington molds these are original.

[Bart Noir]

30 grains of powder on top of a conical.

Am I the only one who rather prefers to put the powder under the ball/bullet?

Bart Noir
Who has managed to get the sequence wrong with a muzzle-stuffer.

[Omnivore]

Am I the only one who rather prefers to put the powder under the ball/bullet?

To each his own.

[72coupe]

I read the the standard revolver load furnished in paper cartridges was 27 grains along with a conical bullet. This was cited as the load the seargent killed John Wilkes Booth with.

[Smokin_Gun]

The February 1975 issue of the American Rifleman has an interesting article on what loads were used in Civil War .36 and .44-caliber paper cartridges for Colt revolvers.
No mention is made of Remington or other cap and ball revolver charges but they were likely identical or nearly so.
No granulation (FFG or FFFG) is noted in the article. Round balls were not used in paper cartridges, but were loaded loosely.
There was a surprising disparity in bullet weights and powder charges in paper combustible cartridges for the Colts, according to the article.

Conical bullets for the Colt M1860 Army .44-caliber revolver ranged from 207 grs. to 260 grs. Powder charges ranged from 17 to 36 grains of black powder.
Conical bullets for the Colt .36 Navy ranged from 139 to 155 grs. Charges ranged from 12 to 21 grains.
Nearly all of these variations are found in prepared, paper cartridges manufactured by private contractors. It appears that U.S. government arsenals made few paper revolver cartridges, preferring to contract this task.
Union Army ordnance manuals of 1861 specify a load of 30 grs of powder with a .46-caliber, 216 gr. conical ball in Colt M1860 revolvers of .44-caliber.
The same manual specifies a .39-caliber conical bullet of 145 grs., over 17 grs. of powder, for the .36-caliber revolvers.
An official Confederate States publication specifies a 250 gr. conical bullet over 30 grs. of powder for the Colt M1860 revolver.
The Confederate specification for the Colt Navy is the same as the Union (.39 caliber conical of 145 grs. over 17 grs. powder).
In the 1860s an average load for the Colt M1860 .44 revolver was 25 grs. of powder with a 146 gr. (about 460" diameter) round ball or a conical bullet of about 230 grs.
The average load for the Colt Navy was 15 grs. of powder with an 81 gr. (about .380" diameter) round ball or a conical bullet of about 146 grs.
Old loadings will occasionally list a 218 gr. conical bullet with a 40 to 50 gr. powder charge. This is intended for the Colt Model 1847 Walker or the later Dragoons, which have a larger capacity than the Colt M1860 .44 revolver.
Of great interest in this article is the apparent dissection of original paper cartridges and the weighing of their powder charge and conical ball weight.
The results follow:

COLT ARMY .44
Hazard Powder Co. - 211 gr. conical / 36 grs. powder
Bartholow's - 260 gr. conical / 19 grs. powder
Johnston & Dow - 242 gr. conical / 35 grs. powder
Unknown - 257 gr. conical / 17 grs. powder
Unknown - 207 gr. conical / 22 grs. powder
Hotchkiss - 207 gr. conical / 22 grs. powder

COLT NAVY .36
Hazard Powder Co. - 141 gr. conical / 21 grs. powder
Bartholow's - 139 gr. conical / 14 grs. powder
Johnston & Dow - 150 gr. conical / 17 grs. powder
Unknown - 155 gr. conical / 12 grs. powder
Unknown - 149 gr. conical / 13 grs. powder

The 2003 Dixie Gun Works catalogue recommends loads very closely resembling the above, but with a ball, not a conical bullet.
All .36 caliber revolvers: .376 inch ball over 22 grs. FFFG black power.
.44 Remington and Colt original gun: .453 inch ball over 28 grs. FFFG black powder
.44 Remington and Colt reproductions: .451 inch ball over 28 grs. FFFG black powder
In my own experience, I've obtained the best accuracy in reproduction guns with balls measuring .380 inch in the .36 and .454 or .457 inch in the .44 Remington and Colt. I have never fired an original cap and ball revolver.

In "A History of the Colt Revolver From 1836 to 1940" by Charles T. Haven and Frank E. Belden, the authors list load recommendations from Colt in the 1850s and 1860s.
Haven and Belden note, "FFG black powder is best for the large and medium-size revolvers, and FFFG for the small pocket models, but any grade that is available will work reasonably well."
Gatofeo notes: In my own experience, I use FFFG in my .31, .36 and .44 revolvers with fine accuracy. I don't see much need to use FFG powder in the .36 and .44 revolvers if you can get FFFG.
Colt recommended the following, more than 125 years ago:
1 dram = 27.3 grains (grs.)
.44 Dragoon: 1-1/2 drams of black powder (41 grs.) and a round bullet of 48 to the pound (about 146 grs, which calculates at about .46 caliber) or a conical bullet of 32 to the pound (about 219 grains).
.44 M1860 Army - Powder charge about 1/3 less than the Dragoon, or 27 grains. A conical bullet of 212 grains (33 to the pound) or the same round ball used in the Dragoon above (about .46-caliber or 146 grs. weight).
.36 M1851 Navy - Powder charge of 3/4 of a dram (20 grs.) and conical bullet 140 grs. (50 to the pound ). Or a round ball of 81 grs. (86 to the pound, which would be about .379 or .380 diameter).
.36 M1862 Pocket and Police - Conical bullet over 15 grs. of powder. No weight is given the conical bullet for this model but it's known that it had its own bullet mould, casting a shorter and lighter conical bullet than the Navy .36 revolver.
Presumably, the .380 ball above is used with the same powder charge. In my own 1862 reproduction, I use 20 grs. of FFFG under a .380 inch ball.
.31 Old and New Model Pocket Pistols - Conical bullet of 76 grains (92 to the pound) over half a dram (13.5 grains) of powder, or a round ball of 50 grs. (140 to the pound and about .320 inch diameter).
Gatofeo notes: Present day 0 buckshot measures about .320 inch and makes an excellent ball for the .31-caliber cap and ball revolvers. Cheap too!
.265 M1855 Sidehammer: Ball of 35 grains (200 to the pound, about .285 diameter) or a 55 gr. (128 to the pound) conical bullet. No charge is listed, but I would guess that 10 grains of powder would be correct.

The late gun writer Elmer Keith (1898 - 1984) wrote a book, "Sixguns" in the mid 1950s. In it, he included a chapter on cap and ball revolvers.
Keith learned how to load and shoot these revolvers from Civil War veterans when he grew up in Helena, Montana. In 1912, at the age of 14, he began carrying a Colt 1851 Navy in .36 caliber.
Keith recommended FFFG black powder for the .28 and .31 caliber revolvers, and FFG black powder for theh .36 and .44 guns.
He didn't list loads by weight, but he instructed to pour in the powder until it almost filled the chamber, leaving room for a greased felt wad.
Keith punched felt wads from an old hat, and soaked them in a lubricant made of melted beeswax and tallow.
Gatofeo notes: I use a mix of paraffin, beeswax and mutton tallow. I use canning paraffin, regular beeswax and order mutton tallow from Dixie Gun Works.
This wad was placed over the powder, then the ball rammed down with it until the ball was slightly below flush of the chamber.
Gatofeo notes: I seat the wad as a separate operation, then seat the ball.
Keith noted, "A percussion sixgun thus loaded will shoot clean all day if you blow your breath through the bore a few times after each six rounds are fired. It will also shoot very accurately if it is a good gun."
"I had one .36 Navy Colt that had a pitted barrel, but with the above load it would cut clover leaves for its six shots, at 20 yards, all day with seated back and head rest and two hands used between the knees to further holding," Keith wrote, adding that he later traded it for a modern .38 Special revolver that was never as accurate as that Navy.

So, as far as a "standard load" for the old Colts, there ain't no such animal! The soldiers used what they were issued, and that issued ammunition varied greatly.
__________________

[72coupe]

The best pistol shot at our club shot a 2 inch 5 shot group with my Lyman 58 Remington replica at 50 yards.

The load was 30 grains of Pyrodex RS under a 210 grain Lee cast bullet.

Chronograph velocity is 915 with an unbelievable SD of 9.

[Omnivore]

Nice report, SG. Thank you.

Now I'm as confused as ever, though. The 1858 Remington frame has far more room under the loading lever, compared to the '51 and '60 Colts. I recently got hold of some 210 (IIRC) grain "DD-ROA" conicals, and had to modify both the '58 Remington frame and a new loading ram to have any chance of getting the longish bullet under the ram.

If they were at times using even heavier bullets, surely they must have had to remove the cylinder to load it. Either that or our modern replicas are pathetically far off spec from the originals (my '58 Remington is a very recent Pietta). Now, if the conicals of yore were tapered so that the base could drop far into the chamber before the ram was needed, maybe they could be loaded in the assembled Colts, but it would be a stretch. More of a stretch would be loading a whole cartridge with a long bullet in an assembled Colt without tearing the cartridge. What am I missing?

If I could only get hold of a time machine I could watch these guys loading their pieces back in the 1800s.

[madcratebuilder]

Omnivore, you got me curious enough to measure the distance between the cylinder and ram on a few pistols.
My Pietta 1858 is 1/2 inch, as is my 51 Navy Colt 2nd gen and Uberti 51. ROA is 5/8. 61 Navy Colt 2nd, 60 Army Centaure are 3/4 inch. Pietta .44 reb and Spiller and Burr are 3/8+.
I tried some Buffalo Bore conicals one time and had a problem getting them to start straight when the cylinder was in the frame. I can't imagine using the conical with a paper cartridge attached to it.
I have made some paper carts with rb, those are not to bad to load.

[Omnivore]

madcrate; Yeah, you can get a .454 or .457 ball under the ram even if there's only 3/8" space, because the ball falls almost halfway into the cylinder prior to ramming. A conical with a square base sits right on top of the chamber, so you need the full length of the bullet as free space under the ram.

OK, maybe I'm just using the wrong conicals. Yes, that must be it, but still; a 200+ grain conical will still need to drop a long way into the chamber to work in my Pietta-Remington without modifying both the frame and the ram.

I've tried using cartridges with round ball in the Colt, and it's tough to do without tearing the cart. If I taper the cartridge a lot, it's doable. I could grind off the barrel wedge to make more room on the RH side of the gun for loading, but I've gone to using powder-only cartridges instead, placing the ball separately.