Safe Bolting questions

[camacho]

Paging CB900F, a1abdj, and everyone else who's an expert on safes. I bought a safe (an RSC to be exact) and want to bolt it. The surface currently is smooth concrete but I am planning to put a laminate floor. The question I have is do I bolt the safe first to the floor, and then do the flooring around, or do the flooring and bolt it through (if that's even possible)? Somehow I remember reading that safes ought to be bolted directly to the concrete if possible. Also, if I bolt it directly, do I need to put some sort of insulation between the concrete and the safe? Finally, what bolts are best for that purpose? I will be hiring a local company to do the bolting but want to make sure the stuff they use is the best. If not, I will buy it and will just let them bolt it.

Your help is as always appreciated!

[21H40]

Are you ever going to try and sell the house? If not, then sure install it flush on the concrete, but double check that the door will still open after the flooring's installed. As long as the bolts are secured into the concrete (through the laminate flooring) the safe should be good to go either way.

I'm curious what the security professionals recommend for bolting methods. My background is in construction, but this isn't too far outside of my lane.

I've seen good old "Redhead" anchors used, but I think that some of the concrete/steel epoxies might be good to include. I think that as long as the holes are drilled correctly (no cracks, loose aggregate, etc.) there should be a big margin of error in strength requirements. I'd be really surprised if you need more than 1/2" bolts (bolt length will be based upon your safe style, other conditions, blah, blah). Usually manufacturer's have recommendations for proper installation of their products, have you checked with your specific product?

I'd go with some sort of threaded anchor and stainless bolts (if you get really serious, check out ASTM ratings for the specific ratings that meet your needs). If you're putting this in place forever and ever, use two nuts and peen the exposed threads on the bolts to prevent loosening over time.

[camacho]

Are you ever going to try and sell the house?

Not for a long, long time, and then if I do sell it, I will just redo the floor.

but I think that some of the concrete/steel epoxies might be good to include

I also read about the epoxies, wonder what other in the field think about those?

[a1abdj]

I'm not a fan of installing gun safes directly on to concrete. Steel against concrete creates condensation which can rust the bottom of the safe, and create moisture issues within the safe.

I would install your floor (which probably has some sort of vapor barrier), place some adhesive furniture pads to the bottom of the safe, and bolt it through the floor.

For gun safes I usually use 3/8" drive in anchors. The 3/8" anchors that we use have a pull strength of around 1,200 pounds per bolt, and you're usually going to use 4 of them. We do use 1/2" on occasion, but the 3/8" holes drill a lot faster.

We use some slightly better anchors for the commercial safes. These anchors screw directly into the concrete using the hole as a pilot, and their own threads to thread the concrete. The only time I've seen epoxy anchoring is on ATM machines, and raw epoxy to steel "gluing" of safes to tensioned slabs.

[allank]

I read that you should put 1/2" plywood between the concrete and the floor. I think the reasoning is that it lets the plywood rot out if there is dampness (and you will see that) versus the bottom of the safe rusting. It also smooths out the floor for the safe to bolt to (more level). The laminate floor might be too soft compared to plywood and therefore would not be suitable.

[brickeyee]

Try and get in at least 2+ inches.
Even in 3000 PSI concrete this give a very good withdrawal (tension) rating.
http://www.smithfast.com/dynagoldspec.htm

[no_problem]

I am getting a home too, and I am thinking the same. I started to consider putting the safe in the garage. However, this might make it easier for the "smash and grab" crowd to just crash in and pull the safe out. So now I am thinking of putting it in the home and bolting it to the subfloor.

[never_retreat]

Get some of these bad boys.
http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/module...jsp?OID=-17709

The only problem I see is that the laminate floor is not going to be able to move with the weight of a safe on it. Hopefully you don't get any buckling.

[jkingrph]

I installed mine in a corner of my garage workshop. I had had a new, insulated overhead door installed. For the safe, i first glued down a pad of vinyl floor tile to separate it from the concrete. The safe installer said it would be best to bolt to the floor, so he drilled and installed four anchors he had for that purpose. I do not know what kind but they were some of the largest concrete anchors I have seen. My safe is a large Winchester(Meinkie(sp)) 6'tall 27"deep and about 42" wide weighing about 1800lbs empty. He said he had seen similar safes picked up and carried off, even found on in the middle of a city street one day where it had fallen off theives truck.

[TAB]

By laminate do you mean a floating floor or a glue down?

if floating install the safe 1st and go around it( save a box to fill in when you sell, or just leave the safe) if glue down... lay the floor 1st.

[whosyrdaddy]

+1 for the wedge anchors.

Just be sure you have sufficient clearance above the unit to be able to lift it up and over the bolts to remove it.

[CB900F]

Camacho;

I'd go through the laminate flooring also. Install the anchors and carefully, precisely, measure where they are. Lay the flooring & bore about a 1/4" larger hole through it for each anchor. Then, with your absolutely dead-on measurements, bore the necessary holes through the floor of the safe. Install the safe over the holes, use aligning pins, & when it's where it should be, install the bolts. You did measure correctly, right?

900F

[camacho]

By laminate do you mean a floating floor or a glue down?

TAB, it's floating.

CB900F, can it be done after the floor is installed?

All in all, I am a little confused about whether it will work with a floating laminate floor since I may get buckling. The safe is 450 lbs.

[TAB]

I would not put it on top of a floating floor. Then again 450 lbs is not alot... I'd go with what ever the manufactor recomends.

[brickeyee]

The floor will be pinned by the safe and will not be free to expand or contract.

Depending on how much it actually moves with humidity in may buckle or split.

[longrifleman]

You did measure correctly, right?

I'd recommend a template to transfer the measurements from the floor to the safe. It's almost impossible to drill into concrete without the bit wandering a little. If you can drill through the holes in the safe, no problems.

[CB900F]

Camacho;

Yes, you could install the floor first and then drill the holes & mount the safe. But, in that instance I'd simply resign myself to selling the safe with the house. The holes in the flooring are going to be much larger & the result will be very unsightly should the safe be removed.

900F

[camacho]

Thanks for all the responses so far. It is appreciated. Based on what I have read, I guess I will have a local safe company install the safe first and then will put the flooring around. One question though: a1abdj and other suggested putting something between the safe and the floor. What should that be: plywood, rubber, some other insulation?

Thanks!

[21H40]

In HVAC (lots of condensation issues), a space that allows air flow protects better than any barrier. I'd be very hesitant to put anything like wood between the steel and concrete. Wood doesn't act like a sacrificial anode. It can rot while the steel rusts. The goal is to keep the moisture from sitting on the steel for any length of time.

You should be able to install the safe sitting on a couple of large washers (like steel beams, light poles etc. are done) to allow a firm installation with a 1/8" gap. I imagine some will say that this could allow fitting a pry-bar under the safe, but I would love to see an example of this really being a liability (prove me wrong! ). The safe should still be firmly seated and immobile.

If you drill holes in the laminate floor 1/8" larger than your washers, it can still "float" under the safe. This would support the weight on the concrete (and steel washers) instead of the laminate floor. Also, it reduces the size of a patch job later. (Keep a box of flooring anyway. It's always a good idea to have material from the same lot for repairs, anyway).

I'm curious to hear some other ideas (and reviews of the pros/cons of each) that other people have used. Anyone got an official PE stamped recommendation from a manufacturer??

[camacho]

I'm curious to hear some other ideas (and reviews of the pros/cons of each) that other people have used.

Me too. Anyone else with good suggestions?

[CJ]

A little similar situation and could use advice. I've got a finished basement (carpet over concrete) and would like to anchor into the concrete. Is it advisable to drill straight through the carpet into the concrete and plant the safe on top of that, or should I remove a section of the carpet?

[cassandrasdaddy]

free play and slack in anchoring of safe is your enenmy. if they can get it to wiggle at all they can use the mass of safe against you. the 1/64 inch of play will become a 1/32 and so on as they rock it

[Detachment Charlie]

I haver an RSC that I am putting in my Florida garage. I want to secure it to a concrete block wall, not the floor (because I don"t hqave a hammer drill). What type of anchors are recommended for this type of bolting? I have a "Golden Rod" to help control the humidity and will put a waterproof membrane beneath the RSC.
Suggestions...
Thanx

[cassandrasdaddy]

you can rent the drill

[brickeyee]

free play and slack in anchoring of safe is your enenmy. if they can get it to wiggle at all they can use the mass of safe against you. the 1/64 inch of play will become a 1/32 and so on as they rock it

And the 'hammering' effect of the safe stopping against the anchors as it rocks WILL exceed their withdrawal rating in short order.

Once the anchors start to slip their rating goes down quickly.

For vibration loads the rating of the anchors is significantly less, by factors of 10 or more.