Mystery Colt 1911-A1 .38 Super/.45 ACP: What kinda frame izzit?

netfotoj · November 13th, 2009, 07:37 PM

I need some help with a mystery Colt. The gun shop where I work bought a 1911-A1 with a Colt .38 Super slide, a .45 ACP barrel and an unknown frame.

That's it in the photos. The frame has this spike on the front grip frame that sticks out from the Pachmayr wraparound grip as part of a very aggressive set of fingergrooves.

It's a standard 1911-A1 that seems to be set up for target competition with an adjustable rear sight and a Patridge front sight.

The slide has the expected Colt .38 Super markings and patent dates the most recent of which is 1913 as expected with a 1911-A1.

But the frame is just plain weird. One of the changes from 1911 to 1911-A1 is the arched rear grip frame of the latter, which this frame has.

But another change on the 1911-A1 frame is the half-moon cuts behind the trigger and this one ain't got none of those. The frame is flat behind the trigger like a 1911.

And on the left side of the frame, behind the trigger guard, is a logo that might be a C with an M and a P. That's my best guess of what the logo says.

The fourth photo is a closeup of that logo. I figured it had to be some non-Colt company's logo.

But when a customer asked me to test fire this pistol to check its function, I did this past weekend. It shoots fine.

And then the mystery deepened. One of my buddies who was at the range is retired Air Force who collects military arms and he said he has some old military Colt 1911s that have that same logo.

So, is it a Colt? And if so, is it a 1911 or a 1911-A1? And is it a genuine .38 Super Colt? Serial number on the frame is 13719.

If you want to see more photos and read the description in more detail, this mystery Colt and a genuine 1911 .38 Super Colt are both listed on gunbroker in an auction for my gun shop.

Anybody got any info on the mystery Colt or about the mystery logo?

Jim Watson · November 13th, 2009, 08:05 PM

Parts gun in a big way.

Frame:
Colt sn 13719 was made in 1912 for the US Army. Therefore it is, or was, a true 1911.
The stamp over the magazine catch is WGP for Major Walter G. Penfield, chief inspector for military production at Colt from 1911 til 1914.
It would have had a big bold "United States Property" stamp on the left side in front of the slide stop. That has been removed to sanitize the frame and disguise the fact that it is stolen government property. Don't worry about that, the FBI and BATF don't care about the origin of a gun any more as long as the serial number is still there.

The finger thingie on the frontstrap was welded up, the rear tang ground to take a beavertail grip safety, an aluminum trigger with holes was installed, and Pachmayr grips added, slit to clear the thingie. The arched mainspring housing looks like a Pachmayr but I would need better pictures to be sure. Hammer is a flat type much newer than the frame.

Slide:
I can't read the slide markings, you say it says .38 Super but has a .45 ACP barrel?
That was a lot of work.

Besides that, the rear sight is a Smith & Wesson revolver sight, which is kind of a gunsmithing chore to install.

2RCO · November 13th, 2009, 08:27 PM

Frankengun--Not to be confused with Al... But rather the reanimated Frankenstein variant.

I didn't check the numbers but I'm pretty sure Jim is spot on. (Even about the S&W sight) somebody put some work into this old girl (that's too damn bad because she'd been worth a hell of alot more left alone).

Warlocke · November 13th, 2009, 09:42 PM

The right side of the slide says Super 38?

Looks like someone was building the way they wanted it. circa 1950

netfotoj · November 14th, 2009, 08:01 AM

Thanks for all the expert info. I have incorporated the history from Mr. Watson and likely changes from 1911 to custom 1911-A1 into the auction listing on gunbroker. Sorry I forgot to include the link for the auction, which is actually for two .38 Super Colts, one with 1911-A1 standard parts, I presume, and the second the 1911 with all the modifications.

Here's the link with more photos of the mystery Colt which is now no longer a mystery.

P.S. What's up with the other .38 Super 1911 in the double auction? It has the 1911 flat mainspring housing, but it has the scallops behind the trigger? Serial number is 163679.

berkbw · November 14th, 2009, 10:03 AM

Main spring housings are not very important, as there are many versions which interchange, due to taste.
b-

ROBBY.1911 · November 15th, 2009, 02:10 PM

i would just love to see the breechface on that slide. and then there's the extractor? like i said, love to see it.

November 13th, 2009, 07:37 PM	#1
netfotoj New Member Join Date: 04-05-07 Location: Rockingham, NC Posts: 8	Mystery Colt 1911-A1 .38 Super/.45 ACP: What kinda frame izzit? I need some help with a mystery Colt. The gun shop where I work bought a 1911-A1 with a Colt .38 Super slide, a .45 ACP barrel and an unknown frame. That's it in the photos. The frame has this spike on the front grip frame that sticks out from the Pachmayr wraparound grip as part of a very aggressive set of fingergrooves. It's a standard 1911-A1 that seems to be set up for target competition with an adjustable rear sight and a Patridge front sight. The slide has the expected Colt .38 Super markings and patent dates the most recent of which is 1913 as expected with a 1911-A1. But the frame is just plain weird. One of the changes from 1911 to 1911-A1 is the arched rear grip frame of the latter, which this frame has. But another change on the 1911-A1 frame is the half-moon cuts behind the trigger and this one ain't got none of those. The frame is flat behind the trigger like a 1911. And on the left side of the frame, behind the trigger guard, is a logo that might be a C with an M and a P. That's my best guess of what the logo says. The fourth photo is a closeup of that logo. I figured it had to be some non-Colt company's logo. But when a customer asked me to test fire this pistol to check its function, I did this past weekend. It shoots fine. And then the mystery deepened. One of my buddies who was at the range is retired Air Force who collects military arms and he said he has some old military Colt 1911s that have that same logo. So, is it a Colt? And if so, is it a 1911 or a 1911-A1? And is it a genuine .38 Super Colt? Serial number on the frame is 13719. If you want to see more photos and read the description in more detail, this mystery Colt and a genuine 1911 .38 Super Colt are both listed on gunbroker in an auction for my gun shop. Anybody got any info on the mystery Colt or about the mystery logo? __________________ God, guns & grits

November 13th, 2009, 08:05 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: 12-24-02 Posts: 9,465	Parts gun in a big way. Frame: Colt sn 13719 was made in 1912 for the US Army. Therefore it is, or was, a true 1911. The stamp over the magazine catch is WGP for Major Walter G. Penfield, chief inspector for military production at Colt from 1911 til 1914. It would have had a big bold "United States Property" stamp on the left side in front of the slide stop. That has been removed to sanitize the frame and disguise the fact that it is stolen government property. Don't worry about that, the FBI and BATF don't care about the origin of a gun any more as long as the serial number is still there. The finger thingie on the frontstrap was welded up, the rear tang ground to take a beavertail grip safety, an aluminum trigger with holes was installed, and Pachmayr grips added, slit to clear the thingie. The arched mainspring housing looks like a Pachmayr but I would need better pictures to be sure. Hammer is a flat type much newer than the frame. Slide: I can't read the slide markings, you say it says .38 Super but has a .45 ACP barrel? That was a lot of work. Besides that, the rear sight is a Smith & Wesson revolver sight, which is kind of a gunsmithing chore to install. __________________ I have a few facts and a lot of opinions.

November 13th, 2009, 08:27 PM	#3
2RCO Senior Member Join Date: 08-15-07 Location: SW MO Posts: 569	Frankengun--Not to be confused with Al... But rather the reanimated Frankenstein variant. I didn't check the numbers but I'm pretty sure Jim is spot on. (Even about the S&W sight) somebody put some work into this old girl (that's too damn bad because she'd been worth a hell of alot more left alone). __________________ WWW.2RCO.COM WWW.SecondAmendmentWristband.COM NRA Life Member

November 14th, 2009, 08:01 AM	#5
netfotoj New Member Join Date: 04-05-07 Location: Rockingham, NC Posts: 8	Thanks for all the expert info. I have incorporated the history from Mr. Watson and likely changes from 1911 to custom 1911-A1 into the auction listing on gunbroker. Sorry I forgot to include the link for the auction, which is actually for two .38 Super Colts, one with 1911-A1 standard parts, I presume, and the second the 1911 with all the modifications. Here's the link with more photos of the mystery Colt which is now no longer a mystery. P.S. What's up with the other .38 Super 1911 in the double auction? It has the 1911 flat mainspring housing, but it has the scallops behind the trigger? Serial number is 163679. __________________ God, guns & grits Last edited by netfotoj; November 14th, 2009 at 08:16 AM.. Reason: Add 2nd mystery Colt question

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November 13th, 2009, 09:42 PM	#4
Warlocke Senior Member Join Date: 07-02-09 Posts: 518	The right side of the slide says Super 38? Looks like someone was building the way they wanted it. circa 1950

November 14th, 2009, 10:03 AM	#6
berkbw Senior Member Join Date: 12-03-06 Location: Bucks Co., PA Posts: 237	Main spring housings are not very important, as there are many versions which interchange, due to taste. b-

November 15th, 2009, 02:10 PM	#7
ROBBY.1911 Senior Member Join Date: 03-08-07 Location: southwest florida Posts: 204	i would just love to see the breechface on that slide. and then there's the extractor? like i said, love to see it.