Mystery gun ID - double feature!

Ian · January 28th, 2009, 01:37 AM

All right, I've tonight I've got two new mystery guns for you to identify, if you're good enough. Last week's challenge was solved way too quick, so I've tried to find some trickier items this time.

This first one is a Sten, clearly. The question is, what is special about it? There's enough info in the photo to tell, I assure you. FWIW, it's a registered NFA piece with the happy switch, and I was fondling it all evening while hanging out at its owner's house.

The second one here is interesting for it's internal workings. This one doesn't belong to my collector friend, it was taken in a European arms museum. Not exactly run of the mill, eh? So the question is, what the heck is it?

bmitchell · January 28th, 2009, 09:13 AM

The only thing that seems odd about the Sten is that the barrel seems longish. I see no other strangeness about it.

As for the lever (I'm assuming it's a lever) I'm stumped. That process on the bottom looks very familiar though.

Ben

Acera · January 28th, 2009, 10:44 AM

The second looks overly complicated. Probably why it not recognizable.

Vaarok · January 28th, 2009, 11:31 AM

Looks like a Maxim or toggle-lock of some byzantine sort. I'm gonna throw out it's a Borchardt action, but that's a wild guess.

And damned if I know what's up with the STEN. It's a STEN of some sort. Was it made from the tailpipe of Hitler's staff car?

bmitchell · January 28th, 2009, 11:55 AM

I'm pretty sure it's not a toggle lock - if you look just in front of the trigger guard it is on a rotating block. Also there is a cutout in the back of the guard so it can pass over the trigger. My money's still on lever, though it'd be a non-traditional (or more traditional depending on when it was made) lever handle.

I cannot even begin to conjecture about the purpose of the ventral spinous process.
I'd have thought a loading port or something but seeing the internals I don't think there's any way it could be situated worse for that objective.

Ben.

Chipperman · January 28th, 2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

I cannot even begin to conjecture about the purpose of the ventral spinous process.
I'd have thought a loading port or something....

I'm going with loading port. Looks like a semi-auto action, but I don't see why it was made so complicated.

I can't find anything "funny" about the STEN. Most MKIIs that I've seen were Parkerized, but I've seen blue/black ones also.

**ZeSpectre** · January 28th, 2009, 01:16 PM

Can't tell anything about the Sten, but then again I don't know much about 'em.

The bottom one looks like a lever action with a bottom ejection port.

Now I REALLY want to know what the heck that is!

bmitchell · January 28th, 2009, 02:31 PM

Yes, it could be an ejection port. I hadn't considered that.
If it is an ejection port then the case could be longer than if it was a loading port, since the trigger guard would get in the way of a longer cartridge.

Ben

Ske1etor · January 28th, 2009, 02:46 PM

Well, I don't know what gun it is in the 2nd picture... I am trying to figure out how it operates by looking at the wear patterns... Seems VERY complicated.

Edit* It looks like what I assume to be the "bolt" has horizontal wear marks. Where as, where the lever would go has rotational wear marks but the marks wouldn't be on the outside (where the receiver seems to connect to the stock) unless the entire stock levers down OR the entire trigger assembly levers down away from the stock. See how the metal extends rearward behind the trigger guard...

I don't know... wierd.

I can't wait for more information on this one.

I have no clue on the STEN other than the seemingly longer barrel.

Caliban · January 28th, 2009, 02:59 PM

wouldn't a levergun have, y'know, a lever? all the levers i've seen have doubled as trigger guards, but in this case the trigger guard is fixed, so that would make operating a lever a huge pain.

that said, i have no idea what the second one is either.

bmitchell · January 28th, 2009, 03:22 PM

I'm not sure the trigger guard IS fixed. It looks very possible that it hinges away from the stock and has a longer tang with a handle that isn't in the picture. I don't know why there'd be a notch in the back of the trigger guard area if not for clearing the trigger when the guard was moved with the lever.

Ben

Ske1etor · January 28th, 2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

I don't know why there'd be a notch in the back of the trigger guard area if not for clearing the trigger when the guard was moved with the lever.

Very keen observation.

Ok, so we can assume that it is a lever action. That is about it... lol

You have outdone yourself here Ian...

Caliban · January 28th, 2009, 03:39 PM

Quote:

It looks very possible that it hinges away from the stock and has a longer tang with a handle that isn't in the picture

hmmmmmmm... that would explain the hinge in front of the trigger guard...

bmitchell · January 28th, 2009, 03:44 PM

Sure would.

Ben

AK103K · January 28th, 2009, 04:29 PM

Madsen light machine gun ?

The only thing I can think of with the STEN is, its in .45acp. The barrel looks suspiciously beefy.

bmitchell · January 28th, 2009, 04:41 PM

Wow, that looks like the very creature. I'd say Madsen has it, still looks a little different from the picture (trigger is different, the ejection port is a little different), no reinforcement plate on the back end of the forestock, etc). If I thought it was well known enough to be on world.guns.ru I'd have saved myself a lot of google time.

I thought about the caliber difference on the Sten but examining photos of other Stens it doesn't seem like it's noticably bigger than those.

Ben

bergzilla · January 28th, 2009, 05:03 PM

the first gun is a WWII sten

Wes Janson · January 28th, 2009, 08:24 PM

I think I actually managed to figure one of these blasted puzzlers out!

The second rifle is Danish, I believe known as a "Forsøgsrekylgevær", in 8x58RD, and made in extremely small quantities around 1888. Designed by Madsen and Rasmussen I think, it was a precursor to the autoloading rifle design which itself was the predecessor to the Madsen LMG. Related to the Peabody design, it appears to have been stripper-clip loaded from the top left-side offset-position in that uniquely-screwy Madsen fashion. Apparently this was a gravity-fed mechanism, so I'm going to speculate based on the line about "suitable for fortress use only" that it tended to screw up when not used perfectly level. Not entirely unlike the LMG, come to think of it...

http://www.vaabenhistoriskselskab.dk...php?editid1=92
http://www.thm-online.dk/perioder/26/42/42-SB3437,7/
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?p=294304

I can't find anything else on the damn thing, and don't know Danish, so I can't translate the name. I'm guessing something-Lever based on the cognate, but that could be completely wrong.

Do I win a cookie? :P

Vaarok · January 29th, 2009, 12:08 AM

What the hell. It's a lever-action Krag.

Ian · January 29th, 2009, 03:59 AM

Congratulations! Wes Janson does indeed win a cookie.

He's nailed it - very impressive! Unfortunately, I don't have much information to add about the gun, and nothing beyond what he posted. It's one of the early Madsen semiauto designs, a precursor to the fairly widely used Madsen LMG.

Now, the first gun is still there to be figured out...

It is not a larger caliber; plain ol' 9x19. The barrel is longer than the normal MkII - the question becomes, what does that signify? (There's also one other visible element that is distinct to this special Sten).

BobOfTheFuture · January 29th, 2009, 07:52 AM

I think the stock looks funny, cant place it.

Was that sten silenced at one time?

Ske1etor · January 29th, 2009, 08:16 AM

Man... we were way off... lol

everallm · January 29th, 2009, 08:28 AM

It's a MKII, not the II(s), barrel is marginally longer than normal, no sign of threading for a removable suppresor, looks bog standard otherwise

bmitchell · January 29th, 2009, 08:35 AM

So...it's a semiauto with a lever?
Very odd.

I'd not think the Sten was silenced, since the barrels were shorter on the silenced versions, from what I've read.

Ben

bmitchell · January 29th, 2009, 08:52 AM

It's not Canadian, is it?
I didn't think the Canadian manufactured Stens were longer barrels but photos I've seen seem to indicate that they are.
However, the stock looks wrong for that to be the case.

I'd have guessed German as well, but I'm pretty sure the German-made variant was a bottom-feeder.

Ben

January 28th, 2009, 11:55 AM	#5
bmitchell Senior Member Join Date: 12-29-07 Location: Lookout Mountain, GA Posts: 160	I'm pretty sure it's not a toggle lock - if you look just in front of the trigger guard it is on a rotating block. Also there is a cutout in the back of the guard so it can pass over the trigger. My money's still on lever, though it'd be a non-traditional (or more traditional depending on when it was made) lever handle. I cannot even begin to conjecture about the purpose of the ventral spinous process. I'd have thought a loading port or something but seeing the internals I don't think there's any way it could be situated worse for that objective. Ben. Last edited by bmitchell; January 28th, 2009 at 11:56 AM.. Reason: Spacing

January 28th, 2009, 01:16 PM	#7
ZeSpectre Moderator Join Date: 10-10-06 Location: Shenandoah Valley, VA Posts: 7,491	Can't tell anything about the Sten, but then again I don't know much about 'em. The bottom one looks like a lever action with a bottom ejection port. Now I REALLY want to know what the heck that is! __________________ . "The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on"

January 28th, 2009, 02:46 PM	#9
Ske1etor Senior Member Join Date: 01-29-08 Location: Marrero, Louisiana Posts: 706	Well, I don't know what gun it is in the 2nd picture... I am trying to figure out how it operates by looking at the wear patterns... Seems VERY complicated. Edit* It looks like what I assume to be the "bolt" has horizontal wear marks. Where as, where the lever would go has rotational wear marks but the marks wouldn't be on the outside (where the receiver seems to connect to the stock) unless the entire stock levers down OR the entire trigger assembly levers down away from the stock. See how the metal extends rearward behind the trigger guard... I don't know... wierd. I can't wait for more information on this one. I have no clue on the STEN other than the seemingly longer barrel. __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum. "Except for ending slavery, Fascism, Nazism, and Communism, war has never solved anything."

January 28th, 2009, 04:29 PM	#15
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: 12-27-02 Location: PA -- In the shadow of the Shade Posts: 2,763	Madsen light machine gun ? The only thing I can think of with the STEN is, its in .45acp. The barrel looks suspiciously beefy. __________________ "If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?" He who cares least, wins. ;)

January 28th, 2009, 05:03 PM	#17
bergzilla Senior Member Join Date: 10-11-08 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 334	the first gun is a WWII sten __________________ The truck you drive says a lot about you, the guns you shoot say even more. "How bout them liberals?" Friends don't let friends drive Fords/Dodges.

January 28th, 2009, 09:13 AM	#2
bmitchell Senior Member Join Date: 12-29-07 Location: Lookout Mountain, GA Posts: 160	The only thing that seems odd about the Sten is that the barrel seems longish. I see no other strangeness about it. As for the lever (I'm assuming it's a lever) I'm stumped. That process on the bottom looks very familiar though. Ben

January 28th, 2009, 11:31 AM	#4
Vaarok Senior Member Join Date: 12-13-06 Location: CNY Posts: 1,691	Looks like a Maxim or toggle-lock of some byzantine sort. I'm gonna throw out it's a Borchardt action, but that's a wild guess. And damned if I know what's up with the STEN. It's a STEN of some sort. Was it made from the tailpipe of Hitler's staff car?

January 28th, 2009, 02:31 PM	#8
bmitchell Senior Member Join Date: 12-29-07 Location: Lookout Mountain, GA Posts: 160	Yes, it could be an ejection port. I hadn't considered that. If it is an ejection port then the case could be longer than if it was a loading port, since the trigger guard would get in the way of a longer cartridge. Ben

January 28th, 2009, 02:59 PM	#10
Caliban Senior Member Join Date: 08-01-08 Posts: 372	wouldn't a levergun have, y'know, a lever? all the levers i've seen have doubled as trigger guards, but in this case the trigger guard is fixed, so that would make operating a lever a huge pain. that said, i have no idea what the second one is either.

January 28th, 2009, 03:22 PM	#11
bmitchell Senior Member Join Date: 12-29-07 Location: Lookout Mountain, GA Posts: 160	I'm not sure the trigger guard IS fixed. It looks very possible that it hinges away from the stock and has a longer tang with a handle that isn't in the picture. I don't know why there'd be a notch in the back of the trigger guard area if not for clearing the trigger when the guard was moved with the lever. Ben

January 28th, 2009, 03:44 PM	#14
bmitchell Senior Member Join Date: 12-29-07 Location: Lookout Mountain, GA Posts: 160	Sure would. Ben

January 28th, 2009, 04:41 PM	#16
bmitchell Senior Member Join Date: 12-29-07 Location: Lookout Mountain, GA Posts: 160	Wow, that looks like the very creature. I'd say Madsen has it, still looks a little different from the picture (trigger is different, the ejection port is a little different), no reinforcement plate on the back end of the forestock, etc). If I thought it was well known enough to be on world.guns.ru I'd have saved myself a lot of google time. I thought about the caliber difference on the Sten but examining photos of other Stens it doesn't seem like it's noticably bigger than those. Ben

January 29th, 2009, 12:08 AM	#19
Vaarok Senior Member Join Date: 12-13-06 Location: CNY Posts: 1,691	What the hell. It's a lever-action Krag.

January 29th, 2009, 03:59 AM	#20
Ian Senior Member Join Date: 12-24-02 Posts: 2,672	Congratulations! Wes Janson does indeed win a cookie. He's nailed it - very impressive! Unfortunately, I don't have much information to add about the gun, and nothing beyond what he posted. It's one of the early Madsen semiauto designs, a precursor to the fairly widely used Madsen LMG. Now, the first gun is still there to be figured out... It is not a larger caliber; plain ol' 9x19. The barrel is longer than the normal MkII - the question becomes, what does that signify? (There's also one other visible element that is distinct to this special Sten). __________________ Baby, don't it drop you to your knees? The only thing in life of worth is free To anyone who's heard the call And turned and run away Shadow Gallery, "Ghost of a Chance"

January 29th, 2009, 07:52 AM	#21
BobOfTheFuture Senior Member Join Date: 08-24-08 Location: Downstate NY Posts: 160	I think the stock looks funny, cant place it. Was that sten silenced at one time?

January 29th, 2009, 08:16 AM	#22
Ske1etor Senior Member Join Date: 01-29-08 Location: Marrero, Louisiana Posts: 706	Man... we were way off... lol __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum. "Except for ending slavery, Fascism, Nazism, and Communism, war has never solved anything."

January 29th, 2009, 08:28 AM	#23
everallm Senior Member Join Date: 06-06-07 Posts: 1,211	It's a MKII, not the II(s), barrel is marginally longer than normal, no sign of threading for a removable suppresor, looks bog standard otherwise __________________ "Remember children, once we have pulled the pin from Mr. Grenade, Mr Grenade is no longer our friend" Just 'cause I live here does not make me a septic, you muppet !

January 29th, 2009, 08:35 AM	#24
bmitchell Senior Member Join Date: 12-29-07 Location: Lookout Mountain, GA Posts: 160	So...it's a semiauto with a lever? Very odd. I'd not think the Sten was silenced, since the barrels were shorter on the silenced versions, from what I've read. Ben

January 29th, 2009, 08:52 AM	#25
bmitchell Senior Member Join Date: 12-29-07 Location: Lookout Mountain, GA Posts: 160	It's not Canadian, is it? I didn't think the Canadian manufactured Stens were longer barrels but photos I've seen seem to indicate that they are. However, the stock looks wrong for that to be the case. I'd have guessed German as well, but I'm pretty sure the German-made variant was a bottom-feeder. Ben Last edited by bmitchell; January 29th, 2009 at 09:47 AM.. Reason: Germany

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